#456 — American Fascism - Making Sense with Sam Harris Recap

Podcast: Making Sense with Sam Harris

Published: 2026-02-04

Duration: 21 min

Summary

In this episode, Sam Harris discusses the implications of labeling the current political climate in America as fascism with Jonathan Rauch, who has recently shifted his perspective on the matter. They explore the characteristics of fascism and the alarming trends observed in the administration's behavior.

What Happened

Sam Harris welcomes Jonathan Rauch back to the podcast to discuss his latest article in The Atlantic titled 'Yes, It's Fascism.' Harris notes that both he and Rauch had previously hesitated to use the term fascism, but the increasing indecency and overreach of the current administration made it difficult to ignore. Rauch explains that he initially resisted the term due to his belief that Trump embodied a different style of governance—patrimonialism—where personal loyalty supersedes bureaucratic norms. However, he acknowledges that recent developments have revealed traits commonly associated with fascism, leading him to reevaluate his stance.

Rauch describes how the administration's actions have moved beyond patrimonialism into more dangerous territory, highlighting specific examples, such as the manipulation of tariffs in exchange for personal gain. He emphasizes the erosion of governmental competence under Trump, as loyalists replace experts, leading to a corrupt system. The conversation delves into the nuances of the term fascism, discussing its loose definitions and differing manifestations across history. They ultimately agree that while the U.S. may not resemble historical fascist regimes completely, the patterns emerging in American governance warrant serious concern and discussion.

Key Insights

• The term fascism has been resisted due to its heavy implications, but recent political behaviors necessitate its reconsideration.
• Patrimonialism, characterized by personal loyalty and corruption, has evolved into more aggressive and ideological governance.
• Rauch identifies 18 characteristics associated with fascism that are evident in the current administration's actions.
• The erosion of bureaucratic competence and the rise of loyalty over expertise signify a troubling trend in the U.S. government.

Key Questions Answered

What led Jonathan Rauch to finally label the current administration as fascist?

Rauch discusses his painful journey to use the term fascism, explaining that he had hoped to avoid writing this article. Initially, he believed Trump represented a style of governance known as patrimonialism, which he defined as a system where the leader prioritizes personal loyalty over bureaucratic norms. However, after observing the administration's actions over the past year, he recognized that many characteristics associated with fascism were emerging, compelling him to change his perspective.

How does Rauch differentiate between patrimonialism and fascism?

Rauch explains that patrimonialism is not inherently aggressive and does not seek to ideologically reshape the state. In contrast, fascism, as he describes, entails a more organized and aggressive move towards an ideological governance that can include the erosion of democratic institutions. While patrimonialism leads to corruption and incompetence, fascism aims to fundamentally alter the political landscape, which he argues is now observable in the current administration.

What are some of the 18 characteristics of fascism that Rauch identifies?

Rauch notes that while there is no settled definition of fascism, he compiled a list of characteristics that align with fascism and are incompatible with liberal pluralism. During the podcast, he mentions the demolition of norms as one of these traits, indicating how the current administration has disregarded established standards and practices. He emphasizes that these characteristics warrant serious scrutiny and reflection on the state of American governance.

Why does Harris believe discussing fascism is important now?

Harris highlights that while some may view the term fascism as a mere label that could incite backlash, it is crucial for understanding the current political climate. He argues that people need to recognize the seriousness of the situation and the patterns that resemble historical fascist behavior. By using the term appropriately, it can help maintain a focus on the bigger picture, ensuring that citizens remain vigilant about the implications of governance that resembles fascism.

What concerns does Rauch express about the future of American democracy?

Rauch articulates his worries about the potential for genuine political competition to become functionally impossible if current trends continue. He notes that while not all characteristics of fascism have fully materialized, there is significant movement in that direction. The conversation emphasizes the urgency of the upcoming elections and the need for citizens to recognize and respond to these alarming trends in order to protect democratic values.