#460 — When the Center Cannot Hold - Making Sense with Sam Harris Recap

Podcast: Making Sense with Sam Harris

Published: 2026-02-20

Duration: 22 min

Summary

In this episode, Sam Harris talks with Jonah Goldberg about the troubling state of U.S. political institutions, the erosion of norms, and the impact of partisanship on governance. They explore the difficulties of resetting the political landscape amid deepening divisions and the role of primary elections in exacerbating these issues.

What Happened

Sam Harris welcomes Jonah Goldberg back to the podcast, noting the significant changes in the political landscape since their last conversation. Goldberg expresses deep concern over the erosion of trust in institutions, particularly how political loyalty has compromised the integrity of their operations. He highlights a recent incident involving Kevin Hassett, the chief economic advisor, who suggested penalizing staff economists for adhering to long-standing economic principles. This situation exemplifies the blurring lines between personal and state interests, a phenomenon Goldberg describes as a 'personalist regime' under Trump.

The discussion shifts to the challenges of restoring sanity to U.S. political parties. Goldberg argues that both parties must be sane for the system to function correctly, as the current climate allows one party's extremism to justify the other's. He emphasizes the importance of returning to a political structure where candidates appeal to the broader electorate rather than just their party bases. This shift is hindered by the current primary system, which Goldberg critiques for empowering the most extreme factions of both parties. Ultimately, he asserts that without significant change, the cycle of partisan chaos will only continue to worsen.

Key Insights

Key Questions Answered

What is the current state of trust in U.S. political institutions?

Jonah Goldberg discusses the distressing trend of eroding trust in political institutions, especially as it relates to how loyalty to Trump has compromised their integrity. He points out incidents where even conservative judges have expressed skepticism towards government lawyers, indicating a loss of faith in the presumption of regularity.

How has Trump's presidency affected political norms?

Goldberg describes Trump's administration as a 'personalist regime' where personal interests overshadow state responsibilities. He highlights an example involving Kevin Hassett, who threatened penalties against staff economists for adhering to well-established economic principles, illustrating how political loyalty can undermine institutional integrity.

What are the challenges of resetting the political system in the U.S.?

Goldberg articulates the difficulties in rebooting the political system, emphasizing that any significant staffing changes would be perceived as partisan tribalism. He notes the cynicism surrounding attempts to restore normalcy and the need for both parties to exhibit sanity for a genuine reset.

How do primary elections contribute to partisanship?

Goldberg critiques the primary election system for incentivizing candidates to cater exclusively to their party's base, rather than appealing to the broader electorate. He explains that this structural flaw leads to increasing extremism within both parties, making it harder to achieve a centrist approach.

Is the problem of partisanship symmetrical between Democrats and Republicans?

While Goldberg acknowledges that both parties face challenges, he argues that the issues within the Republican Party are more detrimental to the nation. He believes that the structural problems of primaries have created a situation where extremes are rewarded on both sides, complicating the path to a more balanced political discourse.