The programming language after Kotlin – with the creator of Kotlin - The Pragmatic Engineer Recap

Podcast: The Pragmatic Engineer

Published: 2026-02-12

Duration: 1 hr 44 min

Summary

In this episode, Andrea Breslav, the creator of Kotlin, discusses the evolution of programming languages, the design principles behind Kotlin, and introduces his new project, CodeSpeak, aimed at leveraging AI in coding. He reflects on the challenges and opportunities in the programming landscape today.

What Happened

Andrea Breslav shares his journey into the world of programming languages, beginning with his studies in computer science in St. Petersburg. Initially uncertain about his career path, he found himself working with Borland on developer tools before transitioning back to teaching and eventually pursuing a PhD focused on domain-specific languages. This background laid the groundwork for his pivotal role at JetBrains, where he was unexpectedly invited to create a new programming language, which would become Kotlin.

The conversation delves into the motivations behind Kotlin's creation, particularly the stagnation of Java by 2010, which was seen as outdated compared to other languages like C# that had adopted modern features. Breslav explains that the JetBrains team recognized an opportunity to address the needs of large-scale projects by developing a statically typed language that could seamlessly integrate with Java while offering more advanced features. The episode discusses the surprising adoption of Kotlin after Google declared it the official language for Android, a decision that significantly boosted its popularity and user base.

In addition to reflecting on Kotlin's success, Breslav introduces his new project, CodeSpeak, which aims to create a programming language based on English to accommodate an era where AI assists in coding. This innovative approach addresses the growing influence of AI in software development and presents a vision for the future of programming languages that can adapt to new technologies and paradigms.

Key Insights

Key Questions Answered

What inspired the creation of Kotlin?

Andrea Breslav explains that the motivation for Kotlin stemmed from the stagnation of Java, particularly by 2010 when Java was not evolving to keep pace with other languages like C#. He recounts how the JetBrains team recognized that Java was outdated and needed a new language to meet the demands of modern programming.

How did Kotlin achieve interoperability with Java?

Breslav highlights that making Kotlin interoperate seamlessly with Java was a gigantic undertaking. The team at JetBrains aimed to ensure that Kotlin could work alongside Java code, which necessitated a deep understanding of Java's structure and capabilities.

What factors contributed to Kotlin's rapid adoption?

The episode discusses how Google's announcement of Kotlin as the official language for Android played a crucial role in its adoption. This endorsement surprised both Breslav and the Kotlin team, leading to a significant increase in its user base.

What are the main challenges with dynamic programming languages?

Breslav contrasts dynamic languages like Groovy with statically typed languages such as Kotlin and Java. He points out that while dynamic languages allow for rapid initial development, they become problematic for large-scale projects due to difficulties in refactoring and ensuring stability.

What is CodeSpeak and what is its purpose?

Andrea introduces CodeSpeak as a new programming language designed around English, targeting an era where AI assists in coding. He emphasizes that this project aims to simplify programming and make it more accessible amid the growing influence of AI technologies.